I was getting tired of seeing so many dispensational premils talking about the Jews and nobody on the other side checking them.
I was pretty sad to see Biblical Man post yesterday "The Bible is clear: Israel remains until Jesus returns." The Jews seem to be a gotcha for a lot of solid guys.
Have you heard the IFCJ Bless Israel broadcasts? Those drive me NUTS.
They have a 15 minute broadcast where a bunch of people sentimentally ask Christians for money to fly Jews to Israel. They talk about God blessing those who bless Israel and prophecy being fulfilled right before our very eyes and testimonies of people feeling a rush of satisfaction when they donated and all that crap.
Glad to see someone here with the same stance! And thanks for sharing your thoughts even though it's very controversial. My mom and grandma used to argue (very heated arguments) about this a lot, and my sisters have also gotten into trouble with their teacher for just stating what you said or maybe it was even more mild. That's the thing. It's interesting how if we just have innocent questions regarding Jews, suddenly everyone is so emotional.
I agree with what you said regarding those Bible verses, but recently, I've been thinking about the tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 and also the verse in Romans where Paul says that "a remnant shall be saved” of the house of Israel. What’s your take on those verses?
I'm postmillenial, so I take a (partial) preterist view of Revelation, meaning I believe it happened in the past. No modern Jewish genealogy currently exists, so it would be impossible for 144,000 people today to claim that they are part of a given tribe of Israel.
All Romans 9:27 is saying is that even though the Jews were no longer God's people, that doesn't mean that they are all going to hell. Vv. 31-32 say "but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith..." (NASB95), implying that Jews who DO seek salvation by faith will find it.
I'm thinking it's maybe brought up to say 'hey, if there is a remnant, that means there is still a nation of Israel', which is bad logic. The verse's necessary implication is that there are Jews, not a Jewish state. The Bible never says that the Jews will be wiped out - only scattered.
I see why it’s impossible for anyone to claim that they’re part of a given tribe, and a preterist view of Revelation does make sense of those verses.
Yep, I do believe that Jews who seek salvation by faith will find it. It’s not that they are inferior to us, but it’s just that they’re not superior. I agree that the implication of Romans 9:27 is that there are Jews, but I just wonder if maybe, at the end of the day, God will save them. The real Jews, I mean. Not the modern “Jews.” I’ve always taken your stance (but without the postmillennial aspect, lol), but a while ago on X I saw someone who used to hold the same position change his position with the argument that yes, modern Jews are evil and not God’s chosen people, but there’s still a remnant that God will save. It’s just interesting that his view is like a mix of our view and that of other Christians. I haven’t looked very deep into his argument yet, though. And thanks a lot for your thoughts!
No, only the chosen remnant. Romans 9:27 states that not all will be saved, but the chosen of the house of Israel. As least that's how I understood it. I previously understood that as the 14,000 of every tribe mentioned in Revelation. I may be wrong though. Still in the process of figuring this out.
I’m an ex-believer . In your belief, my soul is going to hell. In mine, I won’t be. My afterlife is different from the Abrahamic afterlife.
While the freedom to express opinions is there, there’s an option to tread carefully. Christians want to proselytise to save souls, right? “You will go to hell if you do not believe” words aren’t going to work on most, if not some.
I do recall what the Catholic Church and the Methodists taught me: your God is the overall judge — it’s not for you to judge who enters hell, but for you to lead others to salvation by example. In short, only your God has the final ultimate say on who goes to hell and who doesn’t.
So be gentle if you do plan on leading others to your belief.
Remember before Christ 2000 years ago, my ancestors survived quite well despite the chaos and turbulence of the ancient days. And so did yours.
The problem I’ve had with the entirely academic question of Jewish salvation, is that Paul shows that they’ve been blinded until the full numbers of the gentiles have come in.
Thus their free will, as an ethnos, has been partly removed. Which will have some effect. What it is I leave to God.
Replacement Theology is a dangerous one, IMHO, and should be left to Catholics and Muslims.
Finally, I will push back against mass Jewish persecution of Christians.
At least for Israel, I can’t think of anything arming Azerbaijan, barring individual cases.
Unquestionably they are overrepresented in academia, and thus among the nihilistic left.
Hmm... I'm going to have to think about this one--but I tend to think you're right.
I could not agree more.
As an ex-dispensational I’m not sure we realize just how much our culture has been influenced by the bad theology.
I was getting tired of seeing so many dispensational premils talking about the Jews and nobody on the other side checking them.
I was pretty sad to see Biblical Man post yesterday "The Bible is clear: Israel remains until Jesus returns." The Jews seem to be a gotcha for a lot of solid guys.
Have you heard the IFCJ Bless Israel broadcasts? Those drive me NUTS.
I have not heard of IFJC
what is it??
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.
They have a 15 minute broadcast where a bunch of people sentimentally ask Christians for money to fly Jews to Israel. They talk about God blessing those who bless Israel and prophecy being fulfilled right before our very eyes and testimonies of people feeling a rush of satisfaction when they donated and all that crap.
Oh my 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
If only people read their bibles—the whole Bible.
Glad to see someone here with the same stance! And thanks for sharing your thoughts even though it's very controversial. My mom and grandma used to argue (very heated arguments) about this a lot, and my sisters have also gotten into trouble with their teacher for just stating what you said or maybe it was even more mild. That's the thing. It's interesting how if we just have innocent questions regarding Jews, suddenly everyone is so emotional.
I agree with what you said regarding those Bible verses, but recently, I've been thinking about the tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 and also the verse in Romans where Paul says that "a remnant shall be saved” of the house of Israel. What’s your take on those verses?
I'm postmillenial, so I take a (partial) preterist view of Revelation, meaning I believe it happened in the past. No modern Jewish genealogy currently exists, so it would be impossible for 144,000 people today to claim that they are part of a given tribe of Israel.
All Romans 9:27 is saying is that even though the Jews were no longer God's people, that doesn't mean that they are all going to hell. Vv. 31-32 say "but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith..." (NASB95), implying that Jews who DO seek salvation by faith will find it.
I'm thinking it's maybe brought up to say 'hey, if there is a remnant, that means there is still a nation of Israel', which is bad logic. The verse's necessary implication is that there are Jews, not a Jewish state. The Bible never says that the Jews will be wiped out - only scattered.
I see why it’s impossible for anyone to claim that they’re part of a given tribe, and a preterist view of Revelation does make sense of those verses.
Yep, I do believe that Jews who seek salvation by faith will find it. It’s not that they are inferior to us, but it’s just that they’re not superior. I agree that the implication of Romans 9:27 is that there are Jews, but I just wonder if maybe, at the end of the day, God will save them. The real Jews, I mean. Not the modern “Jews.” I’ve always taken your stance (but without the postmillennial aspect, lol), but a while ago on X I saw someone who used to hold the same position change his position with the argument that yes, modern Jews are evil and not God’s chosen people, but there’s still a remnant that God will save. It’s just interesting that his view is like a mix of our view and that of other Christians. I haven’t looked very deep into his argument yet, though. And thanks a lot for your thoughts!
By 'saving the real Jews' do you mean like saving all of them? Cuz if so you'd have to ask yourself why.
No, only the chosen remnant. Romans 9:27 states that not all will be saved, but the chosen of the house of Israel. As least that's how I understood it. I previously understood that as the 14,000 of every tribe mentioned in Revelation. I may be wrong though. Still in the process of figuring this out.
Well if you're calvinist then every race technically has a chosen remnant, so the chosen Jews aren't specialler than chosen blacks or whites.
Oh yeah, that's the problem; I'm not a Calvinist. XD I'm figuring that out too. But I do see where you coming from.
I’m an ex-believer . In your belief, my soul is going to hell. In mine, I won’t be. My afterlife is different from the Abrahamic afterlife.
While the freedom to express opinions is there, there’s an option to tread carefully. Christians want to proselytise to save souls, right? “You will go to hell if you do not believe” words aren’t going to work on most, if not some.
I do recall what the Catholic Church and the Methodists taught me: your God is the overall judge — it’s not for you to judge who enters hell, but for you to lead others to salvation by example. In short, only your God has the final ultimate say on who goes to hell and who doesn’t.
So be gentle if you do plan on leading others to your belief.
Remember before Christ 2000 years ago, my ancestors survived quite well despite the chaos and turbulence of the ancient days. And so did yours.
That’s my two cents.
The problem I’ve had with the entirely academic question of Jewish salvation, is that Paul shows that they’ve been blinded until the full numbers of the gentiles have come in.
Thus their free will, as an ethnos, has been partly removed. Which will have some effect. What it is I leave to God.
Replacement Theology is a dangerous one, IMHO, and should be left to Catholics and Muslims.
Finally, I will push back against mass Jewish persecution of Christians.
At least for Israel, I can’t think of anything arming Azerbaijan, barring individual cases.
Unquestionably they are overrepresented in academia, and thus among the nihilistic left.